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10. PRSR 08.14.2002 1/ Elk Item #: 10 Elk MEMORANDUM River 13065 Orono Parkway TO: Park and Recreation Commission Elk River,MN 55330 FROM: Michele McPherso , Director of Planning DATE: August 14, 2002 SUBJECT: Informational/Update Items for August 14, 2002 Meeting B. Park/Trail Developments 1. Park Dedication Fund Balance 2. River City Snow Riders Newsletter 3. Article, `Kudos to Woodland Trails Park" 4. Article, "City to Turn Grace Land Into Park" 5. Article, "Managing Public Events in City Parks" 6 Ice Arena Commission Minutes of April 2, 2002 7. Park Funding Survey, City of Eagan 8. Staff Memo, Personnel Additions, Staff Reorganization 9. Staff Memo, 2003 Budget Issues 10. Article, "Suburbs Striding Toward More Trails" Items 8 and 9 are provided to the Commission in order for you to be informed of the budget discussions and how they relate to the formation of a park department and the hiring of a Park and Recreation Director. Information is still fluid, and no decisions will be made until late August or early September. Levy limits will be set on September 15, 2002 and this will determine the amount of revenues the City has available to spend in 2003. Phone: 763.441.7420 Fax:763.441.7425 wwwci.elk-rivernm.us BALANCE SHEET JULY 31, 2002 Date: 08/05/02 Time: 9:05am CITY OF ELK RIVER Page: 1 f: 07/31/02 Balance Fund Type: SR SPECIAL REVENUE Fund: 225 PARK DEDICATION Assets CURRENT ASSETS 1010 Cash 861,369.91 1012 Fair Value-Investments 439.00 1380 Interest Receivable 8,401.00 CURRENT ASSETS 870,209.91 Total Assets 870,209.91 Reserves/Balances FUND EQUITY 2400 Fund Balance 840,287.39 2600 Change In Fund Balance 29,922.52 FUND EQUITY 870,209.91 Total Reserves/Balances 870,209.91 Total Liabilities & Balances 870,209.91 RIVER CITY SNOW RIDERS MINUTES - JUNE 19, 2002 No formal meeting was held. Once again, great CALENDAR OF EVENTS food was enjoyed by all who attended. Plans were finalized for an entry in the Sherburne Trail Association- 7:30 p.m. July 16 County Parade. Groomer Shed Club Meeting- 7:30 p.m. July 17 FROM THE PRESIDENT: Broadway Bar& Pizza Swap Meet! I wanted to drop a line in this Trail Association- 7:30 p.m. Aug. 12 month's newsletter to remind everyone that the Groomer Shed swap meet is coming up quickly. As everyone is aware, this is our big fundraiser for the year and Trail Committee- 7:00 p.m. Aug. 13 it takes a lot of planning and time to make it all Godfather's Pizza happen. I think everyone who has helped in the past will attest that each year gets bigger and Club Meeting Aug. 20 better. With growth comes a need for additional help. If you have helped in the past, THANK YOU!, if you are planning to help this year, THANKS IN ADVANCE. If you have not Membership Dues: participated, I know you will have a lot of fun and walk away with a feeling of accomplishment. $40 for family membership $30 for single membership Due to my work schedule, I will not be at the next meeting and Troy will be covering for me. These prices include$20 for your MNUSA During this meeting, the swap meet will be membership discussed and planning and volunteering will begin. If you can make the next meeting, please do as it will take everyone to pull off another successful year for the swap meet. REMEMBER YOUR CAER DONATION!!! Have a great meeting and I will catch up with all of you next month. Steve Rief River City Snow Riders - , P. O. Box 553 �- fc! r, 1 Elk River, MN 55330 Ia LSA� JF )Ill 12 2t Michele McPherson Fik River Planning 13065 Orono Road Elk River, MN 55330 33:30}3£09 03 1111141111II!III li111111r111 III,!till III 1(11 ui ll iaetg `apag B.98aa—•not 3ifeg3 'not 'fuggy •aznsea.gq uapptq e Bons aneq 03 pnoad aq two aantI$Ia 'aigtssod apecu aneq oqm IIs 01. sopny •aaout 3Tsms tisnoncus pus uo veq Nam o3 s3uauzom amyl -MOM JO sang ansg ap '9.101.11IM eeag3 wed alp ao3 'VIM siteay pusipooAk w em pue pusgsnq Am qMm PP oa PussI nloq acaoa aneq mei-ut-aag;oaq pug aa3sts Sy�i 7•`a N •3aea snag,pusipooA 3s 2uct�is ( , Sa;unoa-ssoan;o aa3utm ssai.aous sun& pus pion alp a papuiuxaa ^� �^ LiM I 'autumns ptumgoapus ei �'i/ Simois sti;3 ;o S31Piuxnq pug aneq eq; ut 2utpeigaaiioz autuvi elq!ssod maed 1 c s11eaj pueipoo/N 20 4 lOC' epew oyM fie 04 sopnN t 9‘ oNsie lth% • k • A rj. *..?‘ NI* • 9 (4. 1 9 ; 6 N N 3 N ® ,�,i p "n" n• m. ?L c GO J L' N ">> G 4 4'x° :15 '1') UI ° cG A Yt un P eW ,0;404" , ■ o . o 0,i ii c . t o � a X'SH a' �^'gy " O Y .o m G ° ^ a. is -o � F y .p x� ' 'pP"y Sn"n C Go O o A4 cJ 7 ro N U U A y. r m 4 d w o cp O C a LN o ° O N a ' ° a : O 1 N " n W II) y Y L U O. y Z Y dM ,x v b tiM N a d tY 5 M4 y _ � F + ry o m do ° o a o .':•.ty G m o s.. � 7 ° as ,t m A ' E"-i-C a,._. p m ar, �' ° pq o' £. p t ry � ' " "4 '41 .xp.d °. ?^'b i+ .0 ° a.:c ctl rt a) 0.)-.BO 7 1 k^,a }. , 1� 0 :°r° ° adro z+„"° n-°o� - c° i'..°o ' , w ° °ca o ° 6 ❑s cC C7 0 ° 07 ` 1 )�er N miu C se C a 3 Q O m G d. am ° 3 .°C..G..m,22 `© 1 q v 2p — •m. *" t„ >, O W m E p E ^d m ° v'or t B°N x L 00 L c 4 AE y o y o E o as a a a -8. ., en o E;H ti y C . � -d "' ; .E 4 yc O 3 m o b w y�x rw> -0ril,i, t E _0 d 0 o, _F'..a q q, 3 ��„ ■OO ■ E o Ey oca0a, >-no3 4�. wN 3 „Lit' 0 3 a m A.E a a• '. .�.. .a 4 L a. m m Cyjyy n$, a y y crn 3 lC > oFm3P" a c"c O Q ro'ma fro °' o1 r .._... A d C � 7 oE TX ° ctl"L G ° w ❑ 'x? o o. 0 O it o s nn� y, ,, ,I 0 d 4 aw a m d 4 3 C d _, .c rC_En ° "' E o A^p. F a p O p) N b ,O y t 0 w 0 �i p_p ° c.-� 9 0 a t O .� U a) °' °'D o nn °J r, mom°'Au o 3 C d c"oa T n. ,cum 3 3 d 7 Ci 5:44 FY L. n 0' W C O i. Y ry 41 °rN o m a.o n r e . o L o >>A m N: L'M, c19rL.: ILO S!S C'O: NTRO:fC .. . Managing Public Events in City Parks By Ed Luc- estivals, picnics, exhibitions, and affect the city. It should also describe any for claims arising from accidents in parks sporting events present potential i fees or deposits, and any special require- or recreational areas, but will probably opportunities for claims against meats based on the nature of the activity. not help where hidden hazards are the cities when they occur on city Special requirements might address source of the claim. Thin ice, under- property. A city can reduce this proof of insurance or adequate parking tows, and shallow diving areas are potential risk by enacting a park : and traffic control. The size and nature examples of hidden hazards. It is good use policy and performing regular of the use will determine the areas for practice to warn of hazards inherent to inspections of city parks. the city to examine. Are alcohol, motor- an activity. Foul balls, flying pucks, Park use policy. A city should ensure ized vehicles, food preparation and sales, and the presence of biting animals are park facilities are in reasonably safe : fireworks or amusement devices part of examples. If a special event creates or condition and adequate for their intended the activity? Who will clean up after presents special hazards, additional uses. For example, a small neighborhood the event? The city should include any warnings may be required. ballfield would not be a good site for a reasonable conditions related to public Provide adequate supervision of parks softball tournament. It is important, l safety necessary for the event. j and park facilities. Regular inspection therefore, to develop a park use policy For the most part, the city should of park facilities is part of regular super- to guide the city in managing this risk. require the group having the event to vision. However, special events may The policy should include: perform any special supervision, such as require additional supervision even • A mission statement from the city's crowd control and security, that may though the city is not part of the event. park/recreation department with l be required for protection of the public Depending on the circumstances, the associated policies and procedures and property. The permit process should city may wish to put staff in the area, addressing the various facilities and evaluate if special supervision is necessary make more frequent police patrols or how they should be used. for a given event and require the group inspect the area following the event. • A permit or written agreement process to provide it as necessary. If the event Summary. Providing recreational addressing special events and facility may have an impact on traffic or emer- facilities is not without risk. A park use rental. gency routes, atfected agencies should policy can inform the public of intended Mission statement/Policies and pro- be notified in advance. uses of city parks and provide infonna- cedures. A mission statement generally : In addition, the permit procedures non about when a permit is required describes the city's purpose in provid- should be content-neutral. They for a special event or activity. Cities ing park and recreation facilities, and shouldn't depend upon the nature of can use a permit to evaluate proposed refers to the procedures and policies that the organization or the message, and uses of city parks when those uses may have been developed for park facility . should be based on objective criteria affect the city. Regular inspections of usage. Policies for general park rules, such as safety and traffic control. park facilities will help identify hazards, hours of operations, prohibitions, and Regular inspection. Develop and maintenance or repair needs, and deter- patron responsibilities should be clearly implement a written plan for regular mine compliance with any applicable stated. Skate parks, sledding hills, ice ' inspection and maintenance of park and standards. Cities should ensure park and arenas, and swimming pools require recreational equipment and facilities. recreational facilities are suitable for unique policies, including requirements Look at play equipment, shelters, camp- intended uses and conduct regular for adult supervision, personal protective sites, bleachers, restrooms, trail and inspections to keep them that way. r equipment use, emergency procedures, ballfield surfaces for defects and compli- and deposits or fees. This information ante with specific requirements such as should be designed to inform the general bleacher certification. Be sure to docu- public of what the city offers in recre- ' meat the findings and initiate corrective ational facilities. measures. Remember: documentation Ed Lutz is loss control consultant with the Permit process. Special events and is essential. The records you keep may League of Minnesota Cities Insurance Trust. facility rentals present more potential be used later to prove your city's regu- For more information on larger events, and for claims against cities and merit a more ' lar efforts to provide safe facilities. for city sponsored events, visit the LMCIT formal agreement to minimize risk. The Provide warnings of inherent risks Library on the LMC web site (www.lmnc. permit application should ask for infor- or hidden hazards. Recreational use org) and search for the "Liability Coverage mation regarding the activity that may immunity may provide some defense for Special Events" memo. Juty 2002 MJnnesoyrA Crries 15 MEETING OF THE ELK RIVER ICE ARENA COMMISSION HELD AT THE ELK RIVER CITY HALL TUESDAY, APRIL 2, 2002 Members Present: Vice-Chair Johnson, Commissioners Aro, Briggs, Halgren, Madsen and Tveite Members Absent: Chairman Martin Staff Present: Ice Arena Manager Rich Czech, Finance Director Lori Johnson 1 Call Meeting To Order: Pursuant to due call and notice thereof, the meeting of the Elk River Ice Arena Commission was called to order at 6:10 p.m. by Vice-Chair Johnson 2 Consider 4/2/2002 Agenda: COMMISSIONER TVEITE MOVED TO APPROVE THE 4/2/2002 AGENDA. COMMISSIONER MADSEN SECONDED THE MOTION. THE MOTION CARRIED 6-0 3 Consider 8/14/2001 Ice Arena Minutes: Commissioner Madsen noted that he was not present at the 8/14/2001 COMMISSIONER ARO MOVED TO APPROVE THE 8/14/2001 ICE ARENA MINUTES WITH THE CORRECTION. COMMISSIONER HALGREN SECONDED THE MOTION. THE MOTION CARRIED 6-0 4 Open Mike: Commissioner Halgren commented that on the east side bleachers, the filming deck cuts sightlines into the corners of the rink. 5 Review 2001 Operating Finances, Current Information on 2002 Financial Status: Finance Director Lori Johnson reviewed the 2001 operating results. Questions surfaced around the total number of admissions, primarily due to the financial report going from January through December, which splits the hockey season in half. The other questions focused on the Rec hockey programs. The consensus of the commission was satisfaction in the 2001 results. 6 Review the Status of the South End of the Barn: Ice Arena Manager Rich Czech noted that the bleachers have been removed and that there is no immediate plan for any construction. Commissioner Halgren suggested that this area might be used for a Blue Line Club House. Commissioner Madsen commented that White Bear Lake has a weight room in their arena. Further, he suggested that we could offer the Youth Hockey the ability to build a meeting room there. Commissioner Madsen was going to check with Youth Hockey to see if there was any interest on their part to build a meeting room. 7 Certification of Bleachers: Ice Arena Manager Rich Czech noted that the new bleachers in the Olympic Arena have been installed and did receive certification. Discussion ensued about the improved safety the new bleachers provide. 8 Boulevard Display Sign: In January of this year, the VFW donated $5,000 for a display sign to assist in promoting events at the arena. Due to the wet weather, the sign isn't complete, but the hole is dug and the sign should be complete soon. 9 Ice Usage Update/Rates/Customers: The usage for the prior year appeared to have increased slightly. This was the first year in a three-year agreement with the Youth Hockey to freeze the rental rates in exchange for their contribution to the new bleachers. Rates were increased in 2001 in the Barn to $135 matching the Olympic rates. COMMISSIONER MADSEN MOVED TO KEEP THE RATES THE SAME FOR THE UPCOMING SEASON. COMMISSIONER ARO SECONDED THE MOTION. THE MOTION CARRIED 6-0. Ice Arena Manager Rich Czech commented that we have lost Monticello as a customer. However, the ice time vacated by Monticello was filled with other uses such as the Skating Academy. Rogers has a non-profit organization that has been considering construction of a new arena but MAHA is not allowing them to form a Youth Hockey organization until the Rogers High School is complete. Given the increase in demand, the area could support a third sheet of ice within 3—4 years. 10 Staff Updates: A. Sign Sales—Advertising has been pretty stable for the past few years. North Memorial may be pulling their ad from the Zamboni. It was the commission's consensus that we will keep our eyes open for possible advertisers. B. Concession Stand—Youth Hockey leases the concession stand space for$21,500 per year. It was the commission's consensus that no rate increase was needed. C. Summer Projects—The matting in the players' hallway in the Barn will be replaced and three more sections of center groove will be installed in the Barn. The Barn is also in the final phase of receiving new light fixtures. The Olympic rink will be having four sections of boards moved around. The ice plant's condenser will be having some work done and the new city logo will be installed in the center of the ice. D. Dryfloor Usage-There will be a roller blade league in the arena over the summer. The arena will also hold it's normal events: school dances in April, May and September, Chamber's Business Expo, Jose Cole's Circus and a craft fair in May and September. • E. Rink Floor of the Barn—There is a leak in the system indicated by the loss of refrigerant. Floor replacement is inevitable; we need to plan for this and how to fund it. 11 Other Business: There was none 12 Adjournment: There being no further business COMMISSIONER MADSEN MOVED TO ADJOURN THE 4/2/2002 ICE ARENA COMMISSION MEETING. COMMISSIONER TVEITE SECONDED THE MOTION. THE MOTION CARRIED 6-0. The meeting was adjourned at approximately 7:20 p.m. els MEMO city of eagan TO: Ken Vraa,Director of Parks and Recreation CC: Paul Olson, Superintendent of Parks Jeff Asfahl, Superintendent of Recreation Cherryl Mesko, Office Manager FROM: Beth Wielde,Research and Special Projects,Parks & Recreation DATE: June 26,2002 (Revised June 28,2002 to add additional data) SUBJECT: Alternative Funding Sources Survey Findings In May of 2002, staff identified the need to study alternative funding methods as financial support for the Park Site Fund decreases as development slows down. In response to the issues discussed in the May 17 memo, staff distributed a survey to identify how other cities are applying alternative funding sources for their parks and recreation projects/programs. Survey findings are presented in three sections: I. Methodology- discussing who was contacted, and survey return rate. II. Generalized Survey Findings-A summary analysis of the survey returns. Delineates trends in responses and clusters "like"answers for information brevity. III. Individual Results- Each response recorded verbatim or paraphrased. These are important to examine as they discuss individual practices in each municipality. PART I: METHODOLOGY Cities were selected at random based on their proximity to major metropolitan areas, or status of major metropolitan area. Surveys were sent to cities of or surrounding San Francisco, Los Angeles, Denver, Providence, Atlanta, Chicago, Kansas City, Washington DC, Boston, Detroit, St. Louis, Newark,New York City, Cleveland, Portland, Pittsburgh, Philadelphia,Dallas, Forth Worth, Seattle, Milwaukee, Fargo, and New Orleans. Surveys were also distributed to cities surrounding Minneapolis/ St. Paul for a more local viewpoint to alternative funding sources. Cities were contacted for the survey with limited knowledge of their populations, economic base, or primary industry. The intent was to get a sample from a diverse array of populations. Ideas from small towns could be adapted and applied to larger cities, and vise-verse. Parks and Recreation staff were asked to fill in a questionnaire and return the form by late June of 2002. The survey was conducted in two parts, first, looking at alternative funding sources on a national level,then locally. 117 surveys were distributed to cities around the U.S., with 15 respondents, a 12.8% return. 48 surveys were distributed in the Twin Cities metro area. As of June 25, 19 cities had responded, a 39.6%return. Overall,the return rate was 20.6%. TWIN CITIES Suburbs striding toward more trails Officials seeking more ' n,..0 4 i ezpo f, * r 0, fib' pedestrian friendly options ! ek- 4�r a ' y "' ; P' BY CYNTHIA BOYD t +, o '� "9�*i5k°' •g Pioneer Press Ai t r t .,�,- r.,, ;"rte , 1 p A recent study placed the Twin Cities ' C !ll `w second in a national ranking of cities for a,fi,, i`; It i v,,Lilly�4,2002•section : StarTribune )Cal budgetsfeelthe s ueeze q its of many cities ing to have to lose some weight or of the nonpartisan Minnesota Tax 1i'l�^T c [[ "Mies are facing find the money for a new wardrobe. payers Association. "We're seeing a yy TIH I Apt NC;XT.. Local officials must soon begin weak economy and low consumer Sped of reduced wrestling with the twin impacts of confidence . . . People's anxieties Budget countdown ;S—even as I dwindling revenues — including are high." anticipated state aid cuts—and ris- 1'o make matters worse,the local .about to be and a IIbe lea In the metro area ,O up. ing costs. budgets approved later this year about tobegihtlelibitation§ontheir2003 Many are just beginning to likely will be upended by mid-2003 gate. . )uchschere sharpen their pencils and don't yet if the Legislature, as expected, cuts Augusts budgefpropbsals submitted by May( Lynn Smith know exactly how they'll manage to local government aid and grants in and cityand county managers, ' rue Staff Writers balance their 2003 budgets. But an effort to resolve the state's pro- , September:beat governMents set their Ina; they say the upcoming financial jected revenue shortfall. taklevies, ost cities and counties in squeeze likely will strain services The news isn't getting any better. o area, hammering out and kick property-tax levies higher. Octoberoldbud etheatycoun delis discussions s budgets will be like the These are going to be tough BUDGETS continues on 69: • 'boards hold budget hearings and discussions faced by a man whose times for local governments," said —State deficit for 2004-2005could December:Oudgets are finalized and adopte we shrunk:He's either go- Dan Salomone, executive director beat least$1.9 billion. BUDGETS from B1 That doesn't mean that Kel- > Ramsey County: Interest ly won't consider raising user rates are at a 40 year low, Cities, counties s struggling fees for some nonessential city shorting Ramsey County $2.4 services ranging from business million in investment income as aid, other revenues slide alarm systems to business li- that was projected for the 2002 tenses, Budget Director Peter budget. Uncollectable proper- Hames said. ty taxes are on the rise,putting An economic update released penses for 2003 that reflect "The mayor is a strong be- another $1.3 million dent in Friday showed that the state events outside the county's liever that where there is a ser- this year's budget. took in $212 million less than control. They include court- vice charge,it should cover the Added to that is a$1.6 million expected in fiscal year 2002. It house security measures or- cost of the service," Hames cut in state funding primarily for already faced a projected $1.5 dered after the Sept. 11 terror- said. human services and"The billion deficit for fiscal 2003. ist attacks, spending hikes to Even after trimming spend- leaving Ramsey County ewith'a back as the�sugard add,"to Salo- of the district state sever- a ing$6 u$1 million iilslice of grabbing cbmg ye ' spend hole in the current more said. "The clays of free al mandated services for feder- - reserve funds, the city must s year's The cuts county officials money are over . . . And that al and state programs. still find another $6 million to make this year to erase the means local property taxes will The local tax base is fairly balance the 2003 budget. -shortfall likely will be made go up." stagnant and additional money flames said. Fearing skyrocketing taxes, sources are drying up, Kelly already has provided sclmiidtsaid in-2003, Klein- the Minneapolis City Council Kleinschmidt said. "The big- some clues on how he will do "Commissioners will have voted Friday to limit annual gest hind for us is the econom- it. He froze city hiring earlier to make some extremely tough levy increases to 8 percent ic recession,"she said. this year and cut $1.3 million choices by either cutting ser- through 2010. But with costs But even growing commu- from this year's budget by vices or raising taxes, or some rising faster than inflation, tax nities will face tough choices. eliminating 11 positions and combination,"she said. limits also will mean deep Dakota County's growing. merging some functions. lie > Bloomington: City offi-' spending cuts. pains include increased de- will soon announce a plan to cials have instructed depart Even communities inclined wands for services(including reorganize the city's recreation meat heads to keep budgets at to raise taxes as high as neces- parks and public health ser- centers,Hames said. or below the inflation tate in an sary will face a squeeze im- vices), more roads and better "There will be other reorga- effort to hold next year's tax posed by new lower levy limits - transit to relieve commuting nizations, some to save money levy close to its annual average set by a state formula that problems, said Jack Ditmore, and some because it makes increase of just tinder 2.5 per- blends inflation with housing director of Dakota County's more sense. Everything's on cent,City Manager Mark Bern- and commercial growth, said operations, management and the table with him," Hames hardson said. Jiur Mulder, executive director budget. said. of the Association of Minneso- Balancing next year's bud- > Hennepin County: With a better preparedt for ma whatt' 's to Counties. get could mean up to a 6 per- 2002 budget of about $1.7 oil- coining Bran other communi- 13rooklyn Park expects to be cent property-tax levy in- lion,officials in the state's larg- ties, he said. When the econo- limited to a tax-levy increase of crease, compared with annual est county will have to decide - my was humming five years -bout 2 percent, which will increases of about 4.5 percent how to cover a$32 million gap ago,officials developed an eco- field an additional $350,000, in recent years, Ditmore said. that includes $10.5 million in nomic strategy to deal with fu- nterim city manager and fi- Dakota County commissioners state cuts for human services lure downturns. lance director Greg Andrews have already rejected a 9 per- and corrections, and a $21.3 The result, Bernhardson ,aid. But that won't be nearly cent increase to keep services million increase in salaries, said,is that the city avoided ex- mough to cover an expected at current levels. rid et gap ranging from $1 benefits and library opera- panding services b that times.Of couldn't g g p g� g $ "They won't use a tax in- tions. be pillion to$2 million,lie said. crease to fill the hole,"Ditmore "Our board will he faced cials may have to make spend- -1 he city's growing, the tax said. with the choice of levying ver- ing cuts, but services shouldn't lase is growing, but the taxes All the budget pressures sus reducing service and pro- suffer much,he said. ve can levy to meet demands have local officials feeling mix- gram levels.Somewhere in be- Nevertheless, Bernhardson or services are not going up," ions and cautious, said Jim tween the two will be the real said he doesn't underestimate ,ndrews said. Miller,executive director of the answer," Budget and Finance the gravity of the problems just Mulder said that counties League of Minnesota Cities. Director Jim Ufersaid. around the corner. Budget offi- Iso will see expenses rise as "It's a time of significant uncer- Hennepin County has kept cials have exhausted the quick illation and increased service [airily,"he said. emands continue property-tax 4 pe percent for increases a un- and easy choices. 'ices, leaving only the otproblems ind nn- der 4 percent for several years, tough choices. "Costs for such things as as- lions of the urohlems and .,�_ a.,a,.m,.:..,_a__..._-