12-12-2000 PC MIN - SPECIAL
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SPECIAL MEETING OF THE ELK RIVER PLANNING COMMISSION
HELD AT ELK RIVER CITY HALL
TUESDAY, DECEMBER 12, 2000
Members Present:
Chair Mesich, Commissioners Chambers, Pederson and Ropp.
Commissioners Kuester and Schuster arrived at 6:50 p.m.
Members Absent:
Commissioner Baker
Staff Present:
Michele McPherson, Director of Planning; Scott Harlicker, Senior
Planner; Debbie Huebner, Recording Secretary
1. Call Meetina To Order
Pursuant to due call and notice thereof, the meeting of the Elk River Planning
Commission was called to order at 6:30 p.m. by Chair Mesich.
2.
Consider 12/12/00 Plannina Commission Aaenda
COMMISSIONER PEDERSON MOVED TO APPROVE THE DECEMBER 12,2000
PLANNING COMMISSION AGENDA. COMMISSIONER CHAMBERS SECONDED THE
MOTION. THE MOTION CARRIED 4-0.
3.
Reauest by Phoenix Enterprises for Preliminary Plat Approval (Hillside Estates 8th
Addition. Public Hearina. continued - Case No. P 00-18
Staff report by Steve Wensman. Mr. Wensman stated that Phoenix Enterprises is
requesting Preliminary Plat approval of Hillside 8th Addition, a 1 04-lot single-family
residential subdivision in the R 1 e Single Family zoning district. Steve reviewed the
changes which have been made in the plat since the November 28th Planning
Commission meeting, as follows:
1. Removed Lot 2, Block 4.
2. Reconfigures lot lines.
3. Reconfigured Dodge Street in the southwest corner of the site.
4. Moved sidewalk on 196th Lane to the north side of the street.
5. Removed paved trail north of 196th Lane.
Mr. Wensman noted that the subdivision includes a 4.27 acre park (Outlot D) with
trails in the adjacent power corridor (Outlots B and C). The park and trail/utility
corridor encompasses 13.43 acres. He reviewed the tree preservation plan
submitted by the developer, noting that the red and additional areas that staff
believes will be affected by the grading. Mr. Wensman also discussed the trail
connections. He noted that the play structure will be approximately 40 feet from
the nearest property line and the basketball and tennis courts will be 20 feet from
the utility corridor.
Planning Commission Minutes
December 12, 2000
Page 2
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Mr. Wensman reviewed changes in the plat regarding wetlands. He explained
that the developer is proposing a 16 foot high retaining wall in one area and a 10
foot retaining wall in another, in order to avoid filling wetlands. These walls will be
reviewed by the City Engineer. The wetlands will be reviewed by the Tech Panel
and the City Engineer will review the grading, before the preliminary plat is
presented to the City Council. Mr. Wensman noted that a water utility line will run
east-west in the park in order to maintain looping of the watermain. Staff
recommends approval of the preliminary plat with the conditions listed in the staff
report.
Commissioners Kuester and Schuster arrived at this time (6:50 p.m.)
Chair Mesich opened the publiC hearing.
Robin Fitzgerald, 19374 Dodge street, submitted a drawing which showed a cul-
de-sac configuration for Dodge Avenue, rather than the plan proposed by the
developer. She stated that the concept is supported by the residents on her
street and asked that the Planning Commission consider this alternative. Ms.
Fitzgerald expressed her concern regarding the number of accidents and near-
misses at the Evans Street/193rd Avenue intersection. She felt that adding an
additional 104 homes will increase the problem at Evans and 193rd. Ms. Fitzgerald
suggested that the roads in the plat be directed to 196th Avenue. She felt that
more street lights and signs should be required, such as "children at play" and
"residential area". Ms. Fitzgerald stated that she felt the plat is too dense for the
area.
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Chair Mesich noted that the plat is consistent with the existing zoning.
Scott Fitzgerald, 19374 Dodge Street, asked if there were any plans to widen
Dodge Street. Steve Wensman stated that there are no plans to widen Dodge
Street.
Cheri Leonard, 19334 Dodge Street, stated that when she purchased her home,
she was shown a concept plan in which Dodge Street ended and then made a
90 degree turn to the left. She asked why this concept has not been shown at
any of the meetings she has attended for this plat. She expressed her concern
that concept plans are allowed to change. Ms. Leonard stated that she has sent
letters to her Councilmember and has had no response to her concerns. She
explained that she also sent a certified letter to her Council member in September
regarding the pond behind her house and did not receive a response until
November. Ms. Leonard stated that she feels a buffer should be maintained
between the commercial and residential (behind Menards). Ms. Leonard also
discussed traffic concerns at 193rd and Evans. She stated that there have been
many accidents and that a neighbor was recently involved in a serious accident
the previous evening at this site. She expressed her concern that they were told
there would be parks and trails in her neighborhood and she is still waiting for that
to happen. She is unhappy that the pond behind her home is still not cleaned
up.
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Mr. Wensman stated that the only concept which the City has on record has
been shown to the residents. He stated that there may have been other
concepts floating around, but they were not formally submitted to the City.
Planning Commission Minutes
December 12, 2000
Page 3
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Mike Brown, 11360 193rd Avenue NW, asked how future residents in the proposed
development will get in and out of their neighborhood. Mr. Wensman stated that
they will use Dodge and 196th Lane NW.
JoAnne Christensen, 19369 Dodge Street NW, stated that she was involved in the
accident her neighbor was referring to. She expressed her concern for traffic at
the 193rd and Evans intersection.
Sally Pesta, 19506 Auburn Street NW, stated that when she purchased her home,
she was told there would be a park in the Hillside 5th Addition. She strongly
opposed the proposed park for Hillside 8th, stating that the basketball court
would be only 30 feet from her property. She explained that they chose their lot
based on the concept plan they were shown. They were also told that the 15 feet
of trees shown on the original plan would be left and that other amenities such as
clustered mailboxes were never done. She stated that there is a light pOle across
the street from her property which is leaning over and only works part of the time.
She stated that she is very familiar with the Specht property and that there are
many mature elms, oaks and ash which will be destroyed and that evergreens
and potted trees which would be planted after the property is developed can
never begin to replace what will be lost. She stated that the holding pond will just
become a place for garbage to collect. She expressed her opposition to the
retaining walls shown on the revised plans. Ms. Pesta asked that the Planning
Commission recommend that the plan be reconfigured and revised.
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Kristi Fischer, 19664 Zane Street NW, asked what the plans are for 193rd Avenue.
Mr. Wensman stated that it will eventually be extended out to Tyler Street. He
stated that the street will likely be divided with a boulevard, similar to Orono
Parkway.
Doug Franz, 19416 Dodge Street NW, expressed his concerns regarding the noise
from Menards, Dodge Street being used as a by-pass for Highway 169 "up north
boater traffic", and the loss of trees. He stated that he left the November 28th
meeting with the feeling that the Commission also wanted these concerns
addressed and this plan does not address any of these. He stated that he finds
the Commissioner's comment that the 193rd and Evans problem is "unsolvable"
unacceptable and felt the City should continue their efforts to solve the issue.
Dave Crocker, 19422 Auburn Street NW, expressed his concern regarding the
number of cars on Auburn Street. He also expressed his frustration that the
concept he was shown when he bought his house is not what is being proposed.
Paul Schwab, 11181196th Lane NW, expressed his concerns regarding the park.
He stated that he supported the stop sign on Auburn which has been added, but
he did not feel this will solve the problem of cars sliding down the hill. He felt that
this will continue whether there is a stop sign there or not. due to the steepness of
the hill.
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Tim Franke, 19407 Dodge Street NW, expressed his concern that Dodge is being
used as a frontage road for Highway 169. He is also concerned that the
additional traffic from Woods of Hillside is already impacting the 193rd and Evans
intersection. He supported cul-de-sacing Dodge.
Planning Commission Minutes
December 12. 2000
Page 4
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Rich Hardy, 19383 Dodge Street NW, was opposed to having residential homes
backed up to Menards. He asked whet happened to the idea of relocating the
park to this site.
Cheri Leonard, 19334 Dodge Street, stated that she was told by the developer
that she had the right to give her house back if the developer didn't follow
through on his promises. Chair Mesich stated that that would be a legal matter
she would need to pursue through an attorney. He stated that the street lights
and retaining walls are issues which can be addressed by the City. Ms. Leonard
stated that she does not oppose the commercial area. but she objects to the
traffic which will be created because of this development and feels the residents
have a right to have a safe neighborhood. Ms. Leonard asked how she could
get a response from the City if her Council member was not willing. Chair Mesich
stated that she was welcome to attend a City Council meeting for the Open
Mike portion to express her concerns.
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Scott Fitzgerald, 19374 Dodge Street NW, stated that he and the neighbors which
are present are trying to create a good community. He asked what revenues will
be generated in park dedication from this plat. He also asked if credit would be
given to the developer for the power line corridor. Steve Wensman, Planner,
stated that the developer will be given credit for the 4.7 acres of park, minus the
wetlands, and that no credit will be given for the power line corridor. Mr.
Fitzgerald asked how much cash will be given to the City? Michele McPherson,
Director of Planning, explained that the City's park dedication ordinance states
that the City may require 10 percent of the land for park dedication, which would
be 6.7 acres if only land was dedicated, or cash could be required in lieu of land,
or a combination of land and cash. Park dedication fees go into a fund for
acquiring park land or providing park amenities. The park dedication fees are
based on the fair market value of the raw land. This amount is usually determined
through the developer agreement process. Ms. McPherson stated that the Park
& Recreation Commission has recommended a combination of park land and
cash and that an estimate of this value could be available for the City Council
meeting.
Ellen Fredericks, 19381 Baldwin Circle NW, stated that two of the street lights at
the 193rd and Evans intersection have never worked. She suggested lighting up
the intersection and adding lighted or larger signage to warn west-bound traffic
on 193rd that oncoming traffic does not stop. Ms. McPherson stated that she will
bring the lighting issue to the attention of the Utilities General Manager, Bryan
Adams.
John Corkery, 19424 Baldwin Circle NW, suggested that since new schools will be
built, additional property could acquired to add onto the school property for
parks. He stated that the City needs to look for ways to save money when
planning parks so that its residents can afford to stay here.
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Cheri Leonard, 19334 Dodge Street, asked if the Planning Commission can deny
the plan. Commissioner Chambers stated that they can either recommend
denial or approval and it will still go on to the City Council for review.
Commissioner Kuester noted that the Planning Commission cannot simply deny
the plan because they don't like it; they need to establish findings based on the
Planning Commission Minutes
December 12, 2000
Page 5
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ordinance to deny the request. Chair Mesich noted that issues regarding health
and safety, or inconsistency with the zoning would be findings for recommending
denial of a request.
Discussion followed regarding history of the change in zoning of the property. Ms.
Leonard stated that the changes were made before most of the residents bought
their homes.
Leon Opatz, Pioneer Engineering, representing the developer, discussed the
location of the park. He felt that staff and the Park and Recreation Commission
supported leaving the park in its original location, rather than moving it behind
Menards, in order to provide a more central location for the neighborhood as a
whole. He explained the changes made the street alignments (Le., Dodge) and
proposed locations of stop signs.
Ms. Leonard stated that she did not feel Dodge Street was designed to carry the
amount of traffic that will be using the street.
Gary Miller, 19405 Baldwin Circle NW, expressed his concern for the amount of
traffic on Dodge. He did not feel that stop signs will slow down drivers. He
supported severing Dodge Street and funneling the traffic onto 196th Lane NW.
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Cheri Leonard, 19334 Dodge Street NW, asked if the developer can change the
concept once it is approved. Steve Wensman explained that once the
preliminary plat is approved by the City Council. it cannot change significantly
without going back to the Planning Commission to be reconsidered.
Tim Franke, 19407 Dodge Street NW, questioned why Dodge has to be the way for
residents of the proposed development to get in and out.
Brian Green, 19339 Carson Circle, felt that the whole development should have
been considered in the early stages of development. He felt that the streets were
poorly planned and that sidewalks should have been included in the overall plan.
He questioned why Dodge Street cannot be cul-de-saced. Ms. McPherson
stated that the City's ordinance limits cul-de-sacs to a maximum of 700 feet. He
did not support the retaining walls proposed by the developer.
Leon Opatz stated that the retaining walls are necessary to avoid filling wetlands.
Discussion followed regarding location of the park behind Menards. Chair Mesich
did not feel that increasing the depth of the lots behind Menards would help
much to decrease the noise. Further discussion followed regarding the number of
trees which would be lost. Mr. Opatz stated that the terrain of the site prevents
them from saving more trees, since some of the hills have to be cut down and
they will need to fill in some lowlands.
Chair Mesich asked if Mr. Opatz has the detailed elevations requested by the City
Engineer. Mr. Opatz stated that he has the elevations with him this evening.
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Commissioner Pederson asked if the developer would consider moving the park.
Mr. Opatz stated that they considered it briefly, but that they feel it would better
serve the residents as proposed, since it is more centrally located. Commissioner
Planning Commission Minutes
December 12, 2000
Page 6
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Pederson asked if the developer would consider continuing the sidewalks down
Baldwin and Dodge, beyond the plat. Ms. McPherson stated that since there is
no sidewalk on Dodge in the adjacent developments, it was not recommended
by staff. and since the trail ties into the park, no sidewalk was proposed on
Baldwin.
Mr. Opatz concluded that all lots meet the City Code requirements and
requested that the Planning Commission approve their request.
Chair Mesich asked if the developer has considered any type of tree restoration
or replacement. beyond the required two trees per lot required by ordinance,
since there will be such a significant loss of trees in this plat.
Commissioner Schuster asked if the "no cut" zone of trees would be impacted.
Mr. Wensman stated that homes would be 20 feet outside the "no cut" zone.
Robin Fitzgerald asked if an environmental assessment would be needed, since
an old farm dump site is located on the property. Mr. Opatz stated that he was
not aware of any requirement for an environmental assessment. Ms. Fitzgerald
asked for clarification on the issue regarding the limit on the length of a cul-de-
sac. Ms. McPherson explained where the cul-de-sac is measured from.
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Ken Lueck, 11388 198th Avenue NW, stated that he recalled that a former
representative of the developer, Marly Glines, stated that the lots in the earlier
Hillside Additions would be smaller, but that the overall lot sizes would average
out. since the lots in the 8th and 9th Additions would be larger. Mr. Lueck
questioned why the developer did not get the drawings to staff earlier. so that
they would have adequate time to review the changes. He asked why the
developer was not required to obtain preliminary plat for the entire piece. He
suggested that Dodge become a cul-de-sac, and that Baldwin Street become a
through street. Mr. Lueck expressed his opposition to the plat as proposed.
Mr. Wensman stated that the average lot sizes of the overall development meet
the City's current requirements. He explained that when this parcel was rezoned,
was the only undeveloped parcel in the City with the R 1 e zoning designation.
Mike Brown, 11360 193rd Avenue NW, asked how Baldwin became a cul-de-sac
Mr. Opatz stated that terrain in this location would make it very difficult to put the
street through. Mr. Brown stated that he would like to see a sidewalk on Dodge
all the way down to 193rd Avenue.
Chair Mesich suggested that the developer meet with the residents to discuss
their concerns.
Ms. Fitzgerald, 19374 Dodge Street NW, asked that the Planning Commission
consider the residents' recommended plan which was presented to them.
Chair Mesich stated that he was in favor of tabling the request at this point.
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Commissioner Chambers sated that he would like to see Dodge cul-de-saced.
He expressed his concern that the residents' anger seems to be directed at the
City staff and Planning Commission and that most of them were not around when
Planning Commission Minutes
December 12, 2000
Page 7
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the Hillside project first came in. He asked that they try to understand that they
are trying to do the best job they can with what they have to work with. He was
in agreement to postpone the request.
Commissioner Pederson also supported continuing the request, in order to allow
more time for the City Engineer and staff to review the changes. He favored
sidewalks on Baldwin. He expressed his concern for additional traffic funneling
down to 193rd. He suggested that the developer look at extending 195th to
Auburn. Commissioner Pederson expressed his concern that the buffer of trees
will be disturbed by grading for the adjacent lots. He also was concerned for the
lack of tree preservation and felt the clear-cutting which would occur was not
acceptable. He stated that even if the City did not have a tree preservation
ordinance in place, the developer could put forth a good faith effort to plant
more trees than the required two per lot. He felt the retaining walls were
ridiculous and would be a tremendous liability. He questioned the location of the
park and still felt that it would be more appropriate to place it behind Menards
where it would also serve as a buffer.
Commissioner Schuster supported continuing the request, citing issues with the
retaining walls, tree replacement and traffic flow.
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Commissioner Kuester stated that in the past, neighborhoods did not want
sidewalks, and now sidewalks and trails are in demand. She felt there was a
need for a buffer from Menards and was concerned about the trees that would
be lost. Her greatest concern was the traffic. Commissioner Kuester stated that
she was very uncomfortable arbitrarily picking which streets should go thru and
which should becul-de-saced. She stated that she has not heard a good
solution for the traffic issues and suggested that all the streets become through
streets, thereby not favoring residents on any particular street. She felt that
representatives of the neighborhoods need to work with the developer to try to
resolve the issues.
Commissioner Pederson expressed his support for Baldwin becoming a thru-street.
Commissioner Ropp stated that traffic and safety were his main issues of concern.
COMMISSIONER PEDERSON MOVED TO CONTINUE THE PUBLIC HEARING FOR THE
HILLSIDE 8TH ADDITION PRELIMINARY PLAT REQUEST. COMMISSIONER KUESTER
SECONDED THE MOTION. THE MOTION CARRIED 6-0.
Mr. Opatz stated that he was told by staff that it would be acceptable to submit
the revisions by the December 12th meeting date. Chair Mesich stated he was
concerned that the City Engineer has not seen the revised drawings. Mr.
Wensman stated that he spoke with City Engineer Terry Maurer he stated he did
not have a problem with the Commission approving the preliminary plat, but that
he would need to review the retaining wall revision in the plan.
Mr. Opatz stated that he feels they have addressed staff's concerns. He noted
that connecting to Baldwin Circle was not discussed.
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Director of Planning Michele McPherson explained that the City Council has
heard numerous concerns regarding the traffic on Auburn. In order to help
Planning Commission Minutes
December 12, 2000
Page 8
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alleviate some of this traffic, the developer proposed Dodge as a through street.
She also explained that the Park and Recreation Department chose the location
shown for the park because it is the only site which is large enough and relatively
flat. She stated that based on the size of the entire Hillside area, a minimum of 10
acres of park land is needed. Unfortunately, due to opposition of the neighbors,
there is no support from the City Council to develop the park that was dedicated
in Hillside 5th. Ms. McPherson stated that it is not unusual for analysis of the
grading to be done after Planning Commission review of the preliminary plat. She
agreed with Commissioner Kuester that there is no obvious answer to solving the
traffic issues. Ms. McPherson explained that most of the staff and Commissioners
were not around when this entire parcel was first developed and that they now
must deal with the conditions as they are today.
Discussion followed regarding whether or not to postpone the preliminary plat
request.
Chair Mesich asked how many days staff would need to review any changes to
the plat. Mr. Harlicker stated that would depend on how significant the changes
were.
Chair Mesich stated that he would like to see a sidewalk on Dodge and extra
trees added above what is required by the zoning ordinance.
COMMISSIONER PEDERSON MOVED TO CLOSE THE PUBLIC HEARING.
COMMISSIONER KUESTER SECONDED THE MOTION.
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Chair Mesich asked if the applicant was opposed to tabling the request. Mr.
Opatz stated they were not opposed to tabling it.
Chair Mesich stated that he would like to see more through-streets and traffic
controls implemented.
COMMISSIONER PEDERSON RESCINDED HIS MOTION TO CLOSE THE PUBLIC
HEARING.
Commissioner Schuster felt the developer could make an effort to get together
with the residents to address their concerns. He also felt that more trees should
be added.
Commissioner Chambers stated that he anticipates that traffic problems will
continue to increase in this area. Ms. McPherson stated that eventually 193rd will
connect with Tyler Street and that long-term, there will be other outlets. She
stated that staff did discuss phasing of the project to "train" the new residents to
use routes which would lessen impacts on adjacent developments, and that she
did not know of a solution to the traffic issues at this time.
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Mike Nelson, 19402 Carson Circle NW, suggested that Baldwin and Dodge be
made through-streets, and that 195th be connected to Auburn. He felt sidewalks
are needed on Baldwin. Mr. Nelson stated that the buffer needs to be
lengthened behind Menards in order to save the trees. He objected to the
retaining wall and would like to see the park relocated.
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Planning Commission Minutes
December 12, 2000
Page 9
Commissioner Schuster stated that the developer should look at creating more
through-streets and also, increasing the number of trees beyond the required 2
per lot. He had concerns about the buffer zone behind Menards, the park
location, and the retaining walls.
Commissioner Kuester asked if the sidewalk would be continued along Dodge if
Dodge was a through-street. She also expressed concern for the impact on the
trees in the buffer zone behind Menards. She asked if variances could be
granted to move the front yard setbacks closer to the street, in order to protect
the trees. Ms. McPherson stated that in order to change the setbacks, the
property would need to be rezoned to PUD.
Commissioner Ropp reiterated his concern for the loss of trees and the need for
sidewalks along Dodge for safety.
Chair Mesich agreed with the other Commissioners' concerns regarding the
potential loss of trees behind Menards.
Commissioner Kuester expressed her appreciation to the public for their input.
COMMISSIONER PEDERSON MOVED TO CONTINUE THE REQUEST BY PHOENIX
ENTERPRISES FOR PRELIMINARY PLAT APPROVAL FOR HILLSIDE 8TH ADDITION TO THE
DECEMBER 27, 2000 PLANNING COMMISSION MEETING. COMMISSIONER SCHUSTER
SECONDED THE MOTION. THE MOTION CARRIED 6-0.
7.
Adiournment
Chair Mesich adjourned the meeting at 9:30 p.m. to move to the workshop
portion of the meeting.
Respectfully submitted,
MUu~
Debbie Huebner
Recording Secretary